Dr Kuerden's Route through Newton in 1695

[Steven Dowd]

Bob, I am not sure about Old hey being built out of the castle, but who knows, its questionable if he would have seen it, but it was a 3 story building, and it would be in the correct direction.

What interests me, is the circle / pond or mound? at the top of New Hey, the barn is over that spot now,

I cannot post an image from here, I don't have the image with me..

Bob, I did send you one that shows large stones under the foundations and entrance to that new Barn can you post a snippet or smaller image of that ?

Steven Dowd

[bob]

She, if your going Senile look me up when you get there
Bob

[She]

Apologies if anyone else has written any of this before, but for my own personal benefit I decided to check out the “alleged” ruin site today on the way to Warrington.

I have a compass thingie in my car and I can confirm that although the A49 is by and large a North to South road as the crow flies, at the area of Red Bank it deviates a bit and faces a South West direction.

It was about 3pm in the afternoon and a bright sunny day today, so the sun was hitting the trees at exactly the same spot in the picture, so I can confirm the Mill was facing SE, in other words facing Warrington. I realise probably everyone else knows this already, but I didn’t know where this Mill was about 4 days ago and now I know which way it faces- so this is a revelation to me.
I walked up the path to the farm and crikey, it is far more of a hill than I realised. With a brook bending around it this would act as a perfect moat. It ticks lots of boxes as far as castle sites go. However this post if about what Dr K saw, and if the castle was up on top of that big hill which seems such a perfect location – Dr K would have seen it when walking in a Northerly direction toward Newton and most likely seen it before the Mill. As such I think he may have said.....

“but on the left hand, close the ruins of the site of the ancient Barony of Newton, where formerly was the Baron's Castle, you have a water Mill”.

But he doesn’t say this he mentions the Mill first and the ruins last.....

“but on the left hand, close by a Water Mill, appear the ruins of the site of the ancient Barony of Newton, where formerly was the Baron's Castle”

So I decided the only way I could see what Dr K saw was by walking on the old road as plotted by Bob and not the A49 as we have today. This meant me visiting the farm shop (and their Dandelion and Burdock drink is divine) and also doing a little reckie (maybe sort of trespassing perhaps) around Red Bank School itself. I had no other choice because I wanted to get onto the real route.
Very interesting seeing this new perspective.

From the farm shop you can see the garden at the side of what was the Mill and there are indeed 2 trees very similar to those in the picture. I do recall someone saying the farmers had changed the route of the brook and there was nothing but grass between these 2 trees so any trace of a brook eradicated. However they had created an ornamental pond in the middle of the lawn and it was fairly flooded perhaps where a brook had been.

What was more interesting though, is from the angle as stood on the old road you now see behind the farm which is even higher up and more prominent than the field which sweeps down to the A49. IF (and this is a big IF) – there was a castle on the field behind the farm – there is no way Dr K could have seen it when walking past it as the hill in front of the farm would have obscured its view. However then walking past the Mill on the old road Bob plotted, the 2nd hill/ridge behind the farm suddenly comes into view.
Its only a theory and in Bob cute pic of Dr K at the bridge, Bob has him looking back towards Warrington which I thought a bit daft since he was heading away from Warrington. However if the road did curve in towards where the school now stands, as walking along the route the possible castle would have just come into view from behind the Mill and from behind the hill in front of the farm.

The only other option I guess is that the castle was indeed further towards Newton as he was walking away from the Mill – however he does describe the ruins as appearing – and indeed they would appear as he followed the old road round and looked to his left (maybe straight ahead for us as we were stood on the present A49- but even from the present A49 I am guessing the view of behind the farm would still be blocked). I think this only works by retracing the original route as per Bobs map.

Hope this helps and I am not repeating what someone else has said.

[She]

Sorry all, I just read back and realised I have repeated what other people have said and also noticed the map I keep going on about is one that you posted Steven (as well as Bob Im sure)....
I thought I would repeat myself using a map to explain because I dont think I explained it all that well before.

If you follow the old road (in Red)- you need to go to the back of the semis on the A49 and the only way to do this legally is to go to the carpark in the Farm shop. You are then on the part of the road where it bends in towards a North Westerly direction. From this angle - to your left hand side is not to the West its to the South West- as though you are almost looking back towards Warrington. From this angle, you see the rear of New Hey Farm that you would not have seen when you were further down the red road closer to Cop Holt farm. So as walking down this old road, you see the Mill on your left - yes its possible there was a bridge here, but more important the larger hill behind New Hey farm suddenly appears when it wasnt visible before.

Since this is what Bob has already written, its seems Bob and I have actually agreed on something - but to prove it to myself I had to get on the old road. Same thing applied from behind Red Bank school, and if anything the ridge/hill behind the farm looked even larger and more dominant when further away - but would have been harder to see the Mill from Red Bank Grounds.

crossroads-and-newton-brook.jpg

[bob]

Ahh we are now in sync she!
i am not as good with directions verbally , so here are 2 pics of the rear of the farms, i think this is the only area that can be seen as now, but maybe a tad further pre railway. site 1 is where the strange square shape was, is its been built up about 1970,
and site 2 is high, got a road to it, and in the older shot a ground mark appears.
Bob

rear of farms.jpg

rear of farms 2.jpg

[Steven Dowd]

Bob

Area #2 is quite low you know, its nowhere near the top of the hill, which is up behind the back of the barn at the top of the picture.

Its overlooked by anyone walking along the roadway.

Steven Dowd

[She]

Its okay Bob because I cant do the pictoral thing, But today I was in 2 places you illustrated. Place "1" off bungalow row, I did a 3 point turn on that rough ground and looked out over the horizon in the south west direction (or towards Warrington). The ridge/hill behins the farm looks huge from this direction. It is really high off the ground and yes, its to my left. Its all to my left hand side. A few buildings in the way so hard to know if I could see the Mill from here, but I suspect Mr K would have spotted the Mill earlier on in his journey.
Point "2" if you go just above this and slightly to 11 oclcok you may (Im not sure) be in the carppark of the farm shop, which is where I was today. Main thing is, the old route is what we need to look at as it puts everthing in context of Keurdens route and he did vere a bit off the South>North Line and the hill behind the farm was hidden (remains hiddenon the new route)- but appears....on the older route.

[Steven Dowd]

This is a section from the 1849 map which I have coloured green some of the areas which are shown as having trees, I think that Kuerden might still have described New Hey Farm as 'appearing' if the trees were at all heavy along what is afterall shown on the map as Cop Halt Wood, then he might not have been able to see New Hey farm area untill he was at the bridge, and so it might be a natural way to describe its location as 'on the left, close by the mill, appears the ruin'

trees.jpg

(What I still find odd, is that there is a Well shown on the 1849 map between the MIll leet and the roadway to New Hey.)

Steven Dowd

[Podstar66]

What I find odd, is that it is not mentioned on any map. After all the civil war battle area has no 'ruins' or fixed spot but is always shown on the maps as being where it is. Bruche Hall on the 1849 is just 'site of' as if to indicate there is nothing left to see anymore. So why when the ordnance survey chaps came round did they not put an 'x' marks the 'site of a castle', even though there was most probably nothing left to see by this time, 150 years is quite a time after, but then 200 years for the 'site of' a civil war battle is even longer ( and Steven has doubts, (I am sure there is a post to this regard) that it was actually where all the maps say it is ) And as it was Dr Keurden, who was 'a noted historian of the time' who mentions it rather than some local yokel etc, surely that would have lent some weight to the plausibilty of there being a castle at said location for the purpose of including it on any maps?
Was it that no one could trace the route, as Steven says, getting hung up on it being around Newton Hall area, and the uncertainity, that it was left off the maps ?

Pod

[She]

I am not a big expert on wells, (who is and step forward now if you are up for admitting this) - but they are everywhere on old maps and we tend to think that surely they service a local population. This area of Red Bank is not largely populated by todays standards, but maybe it was in former times or maybe the local Mill or farm workers wanted somewhere safe and filtered to drink from. The house next door to me has its own well and theres sod all else on my lane, so maybe it doesnt mean anything significant.The trees/woods may do however.

I drove past this area again tonight (in the dusk) and I am in a big 4x4 - horse height and carriage height. I would see the world as if from a horse. Along the straight Sth>Nth present A49- the lights of New Hey farm can just about be made out on the horizon on my left hand side. Driving down the present road, I would see the area of the old red bank Mill but even in the dark that may be a struggle. On the present A49, I see nothing much else of note.

However, verring to the left in a North Westerly direction as per the old road...imagine I am on a horse and its dusk. Again I see the front high field rising from the road at Red Bank. I see the Mill to my left and the rest of the field is slightly obscured by the wood and then above this, a higher field which (if I dont glance to my left as Im concentrating on where my horse or 4x4 is going) is an even higher field with....for the hell of it...lets just say a castle upon it. The lookouts on the tower have already spotted me as I gallop towards Newton on my horse or 4x4. However, I havent spotted them. My back is turned as I head North and yet they can see my every movement. Friend or foe - they decide. They see me, I dont see them. Am I bothered about people leaving Newton....er nope. Am I bothered about who is entering Newton - uhmm yep.I am set up for monitoring the incoming 4x4s or horses or enemies even...coming into town.

Talk about the element of suprise. What better place to have a castle? Do you advertise your position next to a very public road, or hide on a ridge covered by a ridge so you can always see the back of a potential enemy. I am of course using my imagination now- but in retrospect and from an attack perspective- the back of New Hey farm is strategically very good and they could kill lots of 4x4s from this position - plus its fits Dr K,s description!

[She]

What I find odd, is that it is not mentioned on any map

Hi Pod, Doc K did his walk in 1695 - have we any maps that go that far back? Bob once mentioned that he thought some of the troops from Cromwells battle were held captive in a local gaol. Could it be that the location of this battle at Red Bank was less of a coincidence than we assumed and may be associated with a nearby fortress. Many castles were dungeons as well. Just a question way off the mark...thinking out the box!

Also, why was the castle a ruin in 1695? Who the heck destroyed it and why? There are lots and lots of Norman castles all over the country still. Some are hotels, some ace locations for weddings and some are indeed ruins but can still be viewed from the M6 in Staffordshire and others still lit up at night be they in a partial state. Lots and lots and lots of them. Castles everywhere! What happened in Newton for this one (be it at Red Bank or not) and Castle Hill and who knows how many more- to just be flattened. Any clues as to why we lost all ours. What happened?

[bob]

She

Castles everywhere! What happened in Newton for this one (be it at Red Bank or not) and Castle Hill and who knows how many more- to just be flattened. Any clues as to why we lost all ours. What happened?

i think that is where i come in, i think you,/ us,/ we, have enough now to ask that very question to - TT
Bob

[Steven Dowd]

She

why was the castle a ruin in 1695? Who the heck destroyed it and why?

In another forum thread just down the road, beside the mill stone, we discussed this old farm house, Penningtons Farm



Or Mill Lane Farm as its named on some maps, what I think I mentioned before, is how surprised I was at the size of the stones that the lower part of the farm is made from, and also the size of the stones on the corners,

large-stones.jpg

then with this in mind, consider again, something which I have mentioned many times, the field in front of New Hey Farm, which is inside the loop of the stream, and which is by the bridge, and on the left close by the Mill, is called "Stone Pit Field"

Having photographed it, and looked closely at it, even the google images show it as a flat field, with two levels, it looks to have been flattened and shaped by the hand of man, maybe this has been mined for its stoneworks? how many times on TT have you seen them say the stones and walls have been robbed out, I still think, the closest spot to the Red Bank Mill, the most obvious spot, is the one which matches everything, and has a name to explain why nothing is there now.

Steven Dowd

[She]

I totally agree with Steven re Mill Lane and that occured to me as well....As an avid stone spotter I have also noticed the large sandstones around both the perimeters of Winwick Church and what was Winwick hospital. There are also some substantial stones that make up the embankment of the railway line. They are everywhere in this area. Plus Red Bank does have a quarry, so indeed is a source of sandstone should this be required for a castle, and lets not forget the nearby gallows at Red Bank are well placed. Lots of evidence.

What also interests me is the sheer multitude of people killed in this area. Putting Cromwells battles to one side for the moment, the amount of Knights fleeing whatever, that somehow got caught or ambushed and slain in Newton Park is ,,,,lots. You dont get so many (if any) ye olde killings anywhere else in this area. Its always always Newton Park. Why?

This has always interested me (I do need to get out more)...and I have always asked the question as to why did so many people die in this area. Why THIS area? Maybe the A49 was a major escape route, but it is a long road and they could have been caught anywhere along it - so what made Newton Park such a good place to catch a fleeing knight? Did it have castle towers/lookouts and that would offer a birds eye view of afore mentioned fleeing knight? It cant be a coincidence. Always the same place. A mystery! I mentioned the strategic element of the place earlier on and its something I never considered before- but could a castle here have alerted the Barons of the time to a knight in flight? Easy enough to find out- leave me with this one. Will do some research.

One thing I will try to do relates back to this bit of Dr K,s journey when he says....

“Here, leaving Bradley Park and a good seat belonging to Mr. Brotherton, of Hey, a Member of Parliament for the Borough of Newton, on the left hand, and Newton Park on the right.

He seems to describe the ruin as being on the “left hand” or in other words in Hey as opposed to Newton Park. I found this interesting and worth some thought.

It was preety much gang warfare in medieval times and families took sides. If the Barons of Newton took sides with the Heys and later the Brothertons- and all those killed were on the opposite side- then surely this would add weight to the Hey?Brotherton family allowing the Baron of the time to use their land to build a castle as a lookout. A bit of reseach, but could be proven as to whcih side those were on who always got killed. In the meantime and whilst googling, a member of the website from a while ago left this message on the site-

http://www.n-le-w.co.uk/index.php?optio ... tstart=550

I agree with others what a good site this is. I have a personal interest because I am directly descended from the Brothertons of The Hey in Newton-le-Willows, at the Hall from at least 1350 to 1821, when my ancestor General Sir Thomas Brotherton (of the local 14/20 Hussars, museum at Preston; a swashbuckling hero of the Penisnsular War) sold off all his estates to pay for his sisters' marriages to Frenchmen ...The Hall itself wa scandalously destroyed in the 1970s on the bogus pretext that it was a "danger". It had been owned by the Legh family for many years I believe. It was a Grad 1 listed Georgian small manor and the local Council nodded through its destruction in a matter of days, as I only found out very recently as I have never been to Newton- Le-Willows. I intend to visit shortly to see the spots of interest including memorials in Winwick and Newton-in-Makerfield, etc. It might be of interest to know that another earlier Brotherton of note was Thomas Brotherton M.P for Newton 1694-1701. As a boy he conducted experiments on trees at The Hey. They were presented to the Royal Societty on behalf of "this worthy young gentleman" by none other than Robert Hooke (I have a transcript). This man TB was a devout Royalist and much of his wealth was temporarily lost. He seems to have held to a Catholic line while an MP. He was also a barrister and lived in London for some time. His daughter was married at Windsor Castle. It is a pity the House was bulldozed down. To me it was an outrage to find out that this had taken place. I look forward to researching Newton-Le-Willows fully when I visit. Thanks again for a very interetsing website.

[She]

Hi
I asked before if we had a very old map of Newton and I have found one on this site - circa 1700,s.

It is very clear. It shows how the river/brook/lake would have looked prior to it being dammed.
It shows Newton Hall swivelled at the angle we discussed and I guess it could be described as lake side manor with lovely views over the water. You can see the road divides (triangle in the middle) and part of the road seems to go south west almost like a personal driveway towards Newton Hall, but the other part (actually called Mill Lane) heads off in a south east direction, as suggested by Steven. You can clearly see from this old map that anyone travelling down the original Mill Lane would have not gone anywhere near Newton Hall.

I think we can also see (as per my earlier suggestion), that as per the norm - Newton Hall would have had a small estate of land around it, a lake and a driveway (probably always carefully watched). This would be typical of Halls from this era and what you would expect to see. What is also of note, is the apparent mound of land to the above left of the hall. There has been much talk of a tumulus being underneath the present railway line - and I am wondering if this is it.
Have we been looking for 2 different things.....a Norman castle and a much older Tumulus?

PS: I cant see any bridges over the water here (aside from much higher up and far away from Newton Mill) - so for me that ticks the box for Red Bank at least being the site of the ruin Dr K saw - but I also think we have a tumulus that needs discovering closer to town. Steven, is it possible to overlay modern Newton on this map so we can see just how much things have changed?